Pinning Multiple Attackers. How?

[HanshiClayton]

I could use a little input from the gallery, if you would cast the net for me.

Now and then a jujutsu guy will do a demonstration where he not only escapes/counters multiple attackers, but he piles them up on the floor in a squirming mass, eventually ending up with five or six people tapping madly and giving every sign of being under control and in pain.

How do they do that? When I try to make a pile the students all slither away and get up again.

There must be a way to pin person A (from a standing position) and then roll person B down on him in a way that person B's weight maintains the pin on A. Lather, rinse, repeat.

It would be a chain of interlocking pins, I suspect.

I'd be looking for a video. Thanks! BDC

[HanshiClayton]

Mark Rossi sent me a couple of links to YouTube videos that show a Daito Ryu AIkijutsu master piling up assailants on the floor, and then pinning them painfully. Here are the links:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-U_z-ujlhA about 2:30 into the clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOWfleFO6dU throughout.

There are at least two techniques evident. One is the classic aikido trick of letting four or five people grab your arms and jacket, and then throwing them all at once. This trick is evident in both clips. (I taught this exact technique to my class this week and was astonished to realize how close I came to answering my own question!) By twisting slightly to one side you can tip over the assailants like dominoes and pile them across each other. The top person you have to lock down with an arm bar.

The second clip shows a more sophisticated hold-down that can be applied serially. The enemies attack one at a time and you drop them on the floor with an arm outstretched--- not a difficult or unusual trick in aikido. The new trick is to cross their arms at the elbow and kneel on the top arm. This creates a very painful compression that has the victims writhing on the floor, tapping madly for release.

For perspective, we practice San Ten Jujutsu (jujutsu for karate students), which is derived from unequal parts of George Kirby's Budoshin Jujutsu and Dennis Palumbo's Hakkoryu Jujutsu (via Justin Butler). Hakkoryu in turn was derived from Aikido. Aikido was derived from Daito Ryu Aikijutsu. Is is no surprise that people along this chain would be doing the same techniques.

Much gratitude to Mark Rossi.

[hippocanjump]

Hi,

I completely disagree with the posted clips as far as the real situation application goes. I simply dont buy what I see. I have done aikido and like it a lot, I also compete in judo. The videos are good for demonstrating the principles, but no one can convince me that it will work. The attackers do not struggle to escape as one would do if a strong adrenalin shot kicks in when the pain or disbalance happens. The first attacker to fall down never actually fights back or rolls away and squirms but waits for the rest to pile on top of him. People struggle to keep even one opponent pined even if they have the perfect armlock - say on the elbow as it is shown on the videos here. Take the juji-hashigi-gatame from judo - one can escape even from that armlock where the tori holds uke with both his hands and supports him with both his legs. Or take waki-gatame (judo) where both shoulder and elbow are under pressure - there are several ways to escape while the technique is being applied until its final stage (the real pin). Moreover, the presented mutli-attacker-pins seem to require some flexibility from the attackers or otherwise tori will not be able to tie their arms all in a proper knot.

[colinwee]

While my experience in aiki is limited, the basic immobilisation techniques that I have been taught against one person require that:
1) Uke is face down and his arm is outstretched on the ground and I am applying COG on the elbow joint or the triceps. Where depends on what kind of pressure I'm applying on the wrist. Or
2) I am applying a shoulder lock that pins uke on the ground.

My question would be how long you intend on pinning them to the ground. Even if you succeed in getting all of them down there, holding all of them at once (and we're not talking about just two people) will be difficult unless you have broken all of their elbows and are pinning their stacked hands onto the ground with your foot.

[ujwa2@comcast.net]

I couldn't resist just a couple of quick comments on some of the posts. I have watched the Hakkoryu Shihans do this stunt for years during the demo's that were part of the testing requirements for the Jujitsu students shodan and above. They make it look so effortless. Also, as a person who has been thrown and held in one of these pile ups:
1. A correctly applied wrist lock with pressure points being attacked will keep you from squirming. Movement triples the pain, you stop real quick, and it does not take long to learn not to move much.
2. The locks also include a pressure from the legs of Tori. It is not noticeable, but the slight twisting you see is brutal as it attacks the above pressure points and makes the lock agonizing. Movement from below just means apply a little twist.
3. Once on top you could make yourself very confortable and hold the group for authorities with little effort, may even be able to make the phone call without letting anyone up..
4. All this being said, I think this is only real practical for the very skilled. I still lose people after about 3 because I cannot apply the locks fast enough to transition and free up the hands. I haven't worked this for several years as I do not find it useful in a practical matter. Justin Butler still can do this pile up pretty effectively and he only does this on rare occassion.
Mike

[milmascaras2]

Hello Dr. Clayton,
I tend to agree with Colin, the question is the length of time between pins, also do all of the techniques involved have to be restraining locks or can a mixture of percussive pressure point strikes be utilized to "soften up" the recipients of the less direct locks? Nonetheless, quite an impressive demonstration by the Aiki master, I've seen a similar demo by a Chinese Tai Chi master, as soon as I find it on video I'll let you know!

[HanshiClayton]

I should clarify my perspective on this subject. I am fully aware of the limitations, but I see some practical potential around the edges of these demonstrations.

The aikido students cooperate in the demo because they are on stage doing a demo. Everybody knows it is a dance in that environment. The master does his part by not injuring them. In a more realistic situation there would be desperate attempts to break free, and the master would be dislocating joints instead of bending them. (Well, I would be, anyway. Aikido masters often have unexpected priorities that differ from mine.)

And pinning five or six people is definitely a stunt. That many opponents would never attack in a way that let you set this up. It just would not happen. Still, the stunt can be decomposed into several useful techniques and skills. I have slowed these clips down to 20% speed, and finally frame-by-frame, just to keep track of which identical figure is the master in the video. He's playing some interesting tricks on his opponents as they swirl around him.

However, to be able to pin just one person in a way that leaves my hands free is very attractive to me, and stretching that to two persons seems within reason in some situations. That's as far as I need to take it.

Lastly, like Colin and Mike and Justin and so many others who comment here, I practice both karate and jujutsu. I work very hard to keep my students from being injured in my class, but outside of the dojo I would not hesitate to break bones to make a pin more effective. The knee on the triceps is only a thought away from breaking the humerus. Kneeling on a broken arm should be a pretty effective pin. Probably not much thrashing. Screaming, yes, but not thrashing.

Hanshi Cruz once remarked: "You don't twist the arm to break it. You break it, and then you twist it!"

Thanks to all of you for weighing in on this topic. I was astonished and gratified to see all the replies here. I particularly liked Mike's perspective on being the person in the pile.

BDC

[ujwa2@comcast.net]

Bruce, I also think your analogy of "polishing the sword" is very evident in this discussion. The limitations of our base arts, no matter how skilled we become, shows up real clear in this discussion.
We are attacked by two or more:
Akaido- We can throw people around, but they can get up and return to the fight
Jujitsu- We can control those that we throw around by keeping them by us. What do we do after we have them?
Karate- Are we in a situation to destroy? Do we risk death or severe maiming to the attackers. Maybe. Control the attackers, hardly a tennent of the hard styles.
Soft styles- Do we slap and dance our way into safety with several attackers? Works well with one or two, but more?
What is our best solution to this? "Climb other mountains." The need to have more than one weapon, more than one view, more than one path is clear. Let the situation determine what weapon to pull from the arsonal.
Mike

[HanshiClayton]

We're getting a bit off-topic, but that's what's fun about a blog site.

Mike, your comment about "climbing other mountains" reminds me of the exploits of Wyatt Earp as related in his biography. According to that account, as a lawman Earp had to resort to his sidearm on numerous occasions. However, he didn't usually shoot his opponents. He used the pistol as a nightstick, cracking his opponents over the forehead with it. This was his standard fighting procedure. You might call it "augmented fistfighting."

In a similar fashion, my students and I find that the most practical path is to mix the arts. Let the karate block the punch and break the ribs. Let the judo/jujutsu put him on the ground. Let the aikido/aikijutsu pin him while leaving your hands free for the next guy.

"Hands free" is important. It lets you block, deflect, dial the phone, or reach for your gun --- so you can crack somebody in the forehead with it.

I prefer all-steel pistols for this reason.

BDC

[ujwa2@comcast.net]

Ok, This may be a little off target of the original post, but.....
We were teaching multiple attacker techniques last night in class. We naturally went over some pinning techniques, I am sure because of the discussions over the last couple of weeks. I was thinking about the free hand calling the authorities. Anyway, I am showing some locks and pins and had a revelation al-la Jein Do, ran to my bag and grabbed my cell phone. I started using the cell phone with all the basic waza, keeping it located in a hand position to enhance the technique. (much to the dismay of the students). Very effective, I think I will keep my cell phone real handy. I also think I will add some basic cell waza to the self defense classes. The "calling off the attack" waza.
By the way: Still photo's showing holding pins is forthcomming.
Mike